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Paknews.com, Updated on 2002-01-04 22:51:46
Inside Kashmir: A Westerner's
Eye Witness Account
Aisha Sarwari, producer PakNews.Com Web Radio program VERSA,
interviews William Baker who is Director of CAMP (Christians And
Muslims for Peace) via telephone.
Aisha: Mr. William W Baker: Thank you for
joining us on VERSA, Pakistan News Service’s Internet Radio
show.
William Baker: Thank you it’s a pleasure and a blessing to
be here.
Aisha: You have been very loyal and sincere to Kashmiris right of
self-determination, your book has been very famous too, and has
got many interesting reviews. Would you like to start with a
little bit on that?
William Baker:Yes, it is amazing that out of all people the most
glowing review has come from a Hindu.
Aisha: Really and who is that?
William Baker: Trinity Anath Ramia, a wonderful young man that I
met at Utah State University when he was finishing his PhD in
economics. We had a section there on Kashmir, some of the Indian
students were objecting. He had an open mind and was honest at
heart, he heard what I had to say and we’ve stayed in touch
all these years now. He goes on many programs and all in shows
and speaks on behalf of the Kashmiri people and the injustice
perpetrated against them by the country of India. India
occupied Kashmir. It is an amazing thing. It just shows
you that truth and freedom when presented in the right fashion
opens up hearts be they Indian, Pakistani American or whatever,
and in this particular age, Muslim or Christian or Jew. When they
are honest and objective they respond. He wrote a wonderful
review to the book on Amazon.com. Amazon.com lists my book:
“Kashmir: Happy Valley, Valley of Death.” With 5 stars
recommended from their readers.
Aisha: Can you tell us the words he used in particular?
William Baker: Yes, he wrote that it is an amazing and startling
exposé to the real situation of the Kashmiri people and the
suffering by occupation forces of India because of the
Nationalism of India itself, of the BJP party, Advani and others
who are calling on Hindustan and speaking Hindi all the Muslims,
Christians and Jews get out. This horrible nationalism that has
reared its head in at al places in this land of Gandhi: this man
of peace. Anyway, he wrote that and I’d encourage any of our
listeners to go to Amazon.com. Two of my books are there on
Kashmir. There are also a couple of other wonderful comments
about my book as well.
Aisha: I remember reading Al Gore’s and I was surprised.
William Baker: I am sure a lot of our listeners will join you in
being surprised at that. I actually met Al Gore as Vice president
and gave him one of the first copies of the book. As I shook his
hand looking in his eyes I told him what I had just seen in
Kashmir and what was going on there and how terrible it is. I saw
the tears start to gather in the corner of his eyes. I said,
“Mr. Vice President, I am not going to give you a copy of
this book if you are just going to pass it on to a staff person
and you are not going to read it. You must read this book, you
owe it to the Kashmiri people.” He took my hand and said,
“I promise you I will.” And of course he did. One of
his statements on the front of the book is that the US deplores
the excessive use of force deplored over civilians in Kashmir and
urges the Government of India to reopen Kashmir to media, to
human rights organizations and to various Red Cross and other
relief groups. Then he concluded that the United States should
provide humanitarian assistance to civilians in Kashmir during
the crisis and encourages other governments to assist in relief
efforts for them. That is pretty powerful.
Aisha: Now before we plunge into the definite questions, please
tell us the struggles of the Kashmiri people as you have seen in
your trips there.
William Baker: Well, I wish we had about 16 hours; they deserve
it. Kashmiri people: Its one of the least known disputes in the
whole world and of course one of the least known geographic
places on earth. I have met very few people who know where
Kashmir is located, what hemisphere etc. also in which continent.
But on the one hand I have met once or twice few, very few
Americans who have been to Kashmir. They had the same comments:
“This was many years ago and it was Shangri-La” It was
the most beautiful place they’d seen. They were still
impressed with it many years latter. Then I tell them, “let
me tell you what it has become.” As you may know, and as our
listeners may know, Kashmir is known for centuries as “The
Happy Valley of The Happy People”.
Kashmiri people much like the Palestinian indigenous people in
Palestine fighting with the Israelis, they are happy, non-warring
and peaceful people. They had no organized army no organized
militia- Nothing! They had been occupied on and off for centuries
by the Mongols, my book details that. But no one occupied them
and brutalized them to the point that it forces them to pick up
guns to defend their lives, their families and their faith:
Islam. And indeed this is the difference, as I told the Vice
president. I said, “This is not the situation. That
beautiful idyllic happy valley has turned into the valley of
death and its death for the Kashmiri people. They are dying by
the thousands and tortured. I documented of course for the
fifteen days I lived on a houseboat. I had to secretly enter the
country because it is sealed.
The Indian Government allows no one in and out of there without
someone who is going to parrot the official position of India on
Kashmir. Or should we just say a pro-Indian perspective? I was
able to get in there for 15 days and survive coming close many
time to being arrested and loosing my own life and being beaten
to death. I documented with the camera and still shots hundreds
of photographs, and probably 15 roles of film on a high aid video
camera. I was able to document women who had been raped pregnant
with Indian soldiers children. I documented children who had been
shot, assassinated and killed. I photographed their bodies. I
photographed dead children, these infants being burried in a
martyred cemetery. There are so many cemeteries actually. They
have a separate cemetery for children martyrs because they are so
may killed. I tell you, on one of the cemeteries there is a
famous inscription, “Don’t forget that we have given
our today for your tomorrow.”
I saw that in many places just as a little remembrance for those
children. Also the young Kashmiris that have been killed defend
their families, soil and Kashmir itself against the Indian
forces. I witnessed this over and over and over. Again, do not
forget that, we have given our today- in other world their lives
– for your tomorrow. That is on the cover of the back of my
book in bold letters. I promised those people after the fifteen
days that I was able to get out by the help of the love or God
himself, or I would have never have made it out myself alive. I
was able to get out and bring these things out.
I immediately went to the US congress and petitioned the senators
and congressmen as well as the Vice president and president
telling them of what I saw, documenting it; speaking to
congressional committees and just doing everything that I
promised the Kashmiris, “if God permits me to live and get
me out of here and back to America, I promise you you’ll
have a voice and my voice will be your voice. The world will not
forget you and I will speak for Kashmir.” Indeed that is
what I have done; I wrote the book I put photos in the book. The
publisher said that the photos I wanted to put in the book were
so terrible that he asked if he could at least put them in black
and white and not in color because it is awful. So I did say ok,
but even people who read it now…and you and our listeners
have probably looked at the book at least on the cover there is
the dead body with bullet holes of Dr. Abdul Haq Guruh.
He was a wonderful man who spoke wonderful English well educated
in the west: A heart specialist in Shirinagar. He helped me so
many times into the homes of the people who had been injured,
shot, maimed and raped. He told me he knew they would kill him
one day. He was a non-violent man, he had never raised a hand in
anger, never carried a gun or knife or anything. He was a classic
Kashmiri really: World-renowned surgeon and the only one for 13 m
people. And indeed they did assassinate him and I have
photographs of his funeral cortège being attacked by Indian
soldiers; His son-in-law, Atiq Hussain, who was trying to burry
him and getting shot, and laying there next to the casket of Dr.
Guruh, both of them dead on the street. I tell you…these are
the things that I saw; I saw things that I have never seen
anywhere else in the world. I promised those people, “I will
speak if God saves my life; I will speak for you”, and I am
still doing it, that’s why we are doing this program.
Aisha: Tell me what exactly is the death toll of the Kashmiris in
your opinion? I have seen papers quote about 25,000?
William Baker: No. It is much more than that.
Aisha: How much more?
William Baker: Oh! It’s more than that. Since 1988 there is
upwards of 40- 45,000 at least. The death toll that you hear
quoted is the one in which they can document the bodies,
thousands upon thousands are missing, and have never been
recovered. They have been taken away they have been executed in
mass graves somewhere. As our listeners might know that is a
massive area in the Himalayas. There is a lot of area there; a
lot of huge areas where bodies can be placed in mass graves. The
usual method over there that I have witnessed, you notice right
away that there are no men, no young men or even middle aged
anywhere. They have all either been taken or hiding for fear or
left the area. Many men; missing men, no word is given on why
they were arrested; they are taken away at night. Many times they
are walking along the road and they are taken. Their families
never see or hear from them again. Sometimes they show up in the
Jehlum River, which is the river down near the capital center of
Shrinagar.
Usually the bodies are left there floating in sacks or something
and I have photographs of the bodies. Their families hear about
it. They go down and pull them out of the water and you can just
see the desecration of the body parts. I have a color photograph
of an old grandfather probably in his late 70’s or early
80’s, his whole right arm has been torn off. He’d been
stabbed and his whole chest has been ripped open. This is how
they find their loved ones if they ever find them. There are
literally thousands of Kashmiris, who no one has seen again. I
smuggled out a list of those people. A list from Justice Farooqui
who kept it all these years hoping that someone will come in some
day from the west and will be able to get it out. And I was able
to get those out and turn them over and testify in Geneva, the
Human Rights Commission, Amnesty international and other human
rights organization. It’s a terrible story.
Aisha: At this point I think have to ask you what, in your
definition is terrorism and at this point when there are so many
insinuations about the Kashmir struggle begin perpetrated by
Pakistan, or the “Talibanization of the Kashmir
struggle”. How far is that true?
William Baker: Well, it’s not true at all. I say it very
pointedly and very plainly. I was there. I am neither Indian nor
Pakistani. I am Christian, not a Muslim, although I certainly
love the Islamic people and have written a book about it: the
common ground between myself as a Christian, and Islam. But
still…what I saw when I visited the camps of the Kashmiri
Mujahideen up in the mountains: the resistance struggle fighters,
and I must tell you they were all Kashmiris. I never saw
Pakistanis there. What I did see was one million Hindu Indian
soldiers: Armed to the teeth at every single block and every
junction of every square of every city block and every street
there is an Indian with an automatic weapon and sand bags and
machine gun behind it. Every bridge has a machine gun emplacement
on both: front and back as you exit and start on there. I mean
there are guns on you every second of your life. Yet I hear,
“Pakistan is this and Pakistan is that”,
“Pakistani agents” and “Talibanization” as
you say. This is Nonsense and nonsense means that there is no
sense to it. That is what nonsense is! These are Kashmiri kids,
Kashmiri people living, struggling and fighting and they are
dying, not for Pakistan, they are dying for Kashmir. They are
dying to be free.
You know there is a great statement that John F Kennedy made,
certainly an icon hear in America people will always remember
him. John F Kennedy said hat the most powerful force in the world
today is neither communism, nor capitalism nor the H-bomb or
guided missiles. He said its Man’s eternal desire to be
free. That is the summation of what I found in the Kashmiri
people, there is no Taliban mentality.
In fact the Hurriat conference, which is an organization of all
of the resistance groups that came together and said,
“we’ll meet with India, we’ll have a tri-part type
meeting with Pakistan, India and the Kashmiri group. Lets all
meet together and work this thing out.” This is not
fundamentalist/ extremism, it’s not a fundamentalist
extremist who fights for his country and his family to protect
his wife from being raped and his children form being tortured.
There is a non-existent education. The schools are closed, the
universities are closed and there are no jobs, no income and no
cash flow. It’s a country completely cut off and being
strangled by the Indian government and isolated. This is the
tragedy of it. So the answer is: Absolutely not! The young men
that I was with and I saw them form one end to the other: all
Kashmiri.
Aisha: I am trying to play devils advocate here. There was a
Pakistani group that took responsibility for a recent bombing on,
was it the Indian Consulate? Pakistan labeled that as terrorism
but yet these things are taken as an example against Pakistan. So
what are these other organizations, such as this terrorist
organization that pollute the Kashmir cause and how can it be
stopped?
William Baker: That is a very good question and a very important
one too. I have spoken out against this publicly all these years
and even more forcefully now that there are these groups. And
yes, Pakistan has a political agenda and yes Pakistan is
political with Kashmir. I have (inaudible) personally both prime
ministers in the times that I have met them over there. I have
just seized them both in the presence of their administration
that you have to stop playing or using Kashmir as a political
football for any of your agendas. And support the just cause of
the Kashmiri people to choose their own destiny and if you do
that then your hands are clean and the Indian accusation of
manipulation and involvement will prove invalid. I have said that
when Benazir Bhutto was there and Nawaz Sharif, whom I know
personally, both of them. I said it in the presence of everybody
and even on Pakistani television.
So, it is true that there are those who have always used any
legitimate cause of those seeking justice in fighting for
freedom. There are always those who will use and manipulate that
just cause and use it for their own self and their own agenda. I
have to say that Al Qaida and Bin Laden are doing the same thing.
The Palestinian issue is a just issue for Palestinians ad they
are quiet capable of working it out till they receive justice.
Now for anyone to take that issue and say, ‘now we are going
to use that and tat is the reason we are going to commit
terrorist act against the civilian population some place. In the
name of Palestinians and Kashmiris, which is also by the way on
the Al-Qaida list/agenda. The Kashmiri people are the first to
denounce such activities. They are peace loving wonderful people
and abhor such a thing as the world trade center and these
activities as do true Muslims everywhere. But on the other hand
the sad thing is, the political relailties are people such as
these and other groups always latch on legitimate issues.
The case of Kashmir that we are talking about is such a just
case, a clear case of human rights and self determination, the
desire to be free and it doesn’t need to be clouded over by
people like Bin Laden or anyone, weather they be Pakistani,
Arabs, Indians or who ever. Everybody is making political
movements out of Kashmir.
Aisha: President Musharraf has like I mentioned condemned these
acts and has been very quick to try his best to clean up these
organizations. He has gone out of his way to ban illegal weapons
and organizations that collect money for Jehad. Do you think he
is sincere and do you think this is a step for confidence
building measures?
William Baker: Well, I must say I haven’t met the General to
my knowledge. I have met many generals as I was in and out of
Pakistan for many years. I am due for another trip back to
Pakistan. I love those people and country. They are a great
people they are not represented correctly in the media in my
opinion here in the west. Again I think it is slanted and twisted
and there is a spin put on the promotion of, ‘who are the
Pakistanis’. They only show the handful in the streets
demonstrating in favor of Osama bin Laden or whatever, they never
show the high academic and educational institutions and so on.
Again in a political agenda over here in the west, it plays into
what they want the American people to see. With that said, I am
not sure if I have met the general, he may have been in some of
the meetings when they launched my book in the Urdu language in
1996, I believe. All of the administration and cabinet members
were there. And it is very well possible that General Musharraf
was there and if he was, he knows as Nawaz Sherif once told me,
“you know Professor baker, if you were to run for Prime
Minister here in Pakistan you would win.” (Laughs) He said,
“Every Pakistani and every Kashmiri here knows you,
you’ve been on our television and we know your book and we
know you risked your life to go to Kashmir and that you are an
honest man.”
Aisha: How well are you known in India?
William Baker: It is interesting, I met not long ago in the UN
meeting this year of the world, there were 80 countries there. I
gave an address there and I mentioned Kashmir. I met with an
Indian University Professor along with a couple of other active
members of the Indian Government and one parliament member.
Actually we had quiet a discussion on Kashmir and they absolutely
agreed with me. They agreed with me that there has been a wrong
committed against the Kashmiris and the only solution is to allow
the Kashmiri people to determine their own destiny and their own
future, weather they want to be part of Pakistan or India or
neither, if they want to be the neutral Switzerland between both
countries. It is for the Kashmiris now to decide and they need to
get their forces out of Kashmir, they need get out and quit
harassing and occupying and brutalizing these people because this
does noting.
I told them if there was ever a time, I told the Indian people
whom I talked with also in the Geneva Convention. I said, listen
if you all had given them the plebiscite you would have a just
cause to be at least talking about their succession to India, but
since you never even permitted them the right to take the
plebiscite, weather they wanted to be part of Pakistan or India,
they never really were part of India. You never gave them a
chance to be. So quit talking about “integral part of
India”. That is just political language. You know I am very
direct when asked a question. Because I am speaking for the
Kashmiri people who can never get out of Kashmir, who have no
voice and my voice is their voice and I promised them.
I hope I have an opportunity to meet General Musharraf. I got an
invitation from Islamabad last year and I have not been able to
go though I do want to go I’d love to go, I feel there is a
lot I can do to promote peace between Muslims and Christians and
the people have suffered enough, they need an economy to feed
their children and find education and employment and that country
has great potential. It just has to happen. I think the general
has done the right thing by standing up for justice here on the
issue of terrorism and any by trying to stop the funding of the
extremist groups that are indeed there but they are also
everywhere else I have been, so it’s not to justify it but
they are extremist groups everywhere.
I think he (Musharraf) is doing the right thing, I think he is
trying to bring Pakistan into the new century as a partner of
world peace. I think he knows that the rewards of the west and
Europe are many. That there are people who want to help Pakistan,
who recognize that Pakistan has been a friendly country to
America for many many years, the only country who allowed to fly
our spy planes over the Soviet Union and then Afghanistan over
the 10 year occupation by the Soviets over Afghanistan. So
Pakistan has been a pro-American country since its existence,
when it was created. I would like to meet this General and have a
discussion with him about the Image of Pakistan in the West or
whatever he wanted to talk with. Not being presumptuous to know
all these things but I do know that part of the world and those
people and I am concerned. This is the most important thing we
can say in this interview, I think the west needs to wake up with
the rest of he world that that’s the most dangerous nuclear
flash point in the world; India and Pakistan over the issues of
Kashmir. Two conventional wars have been fought over Kashmir by
these two countries, if there is a third believe me it will be a
nuclear war. Everybody looses then and it is too late for the UN
to jump in and the US to want to barter a peace accord and a just
solution. They need to pay attention now.
I am very concerned that if we continue to ignore the Kashmir
issue, the subcontinent and Pakistan and India. Indeed there are
those on both sides who feel they can loose thirty or forty
million people: Mumbai, Karachi; that’s doable we’ll
survive the rest of us- that’s a horrible way to think. I
really believe the nuclear flash point of he world is not the
Palestinian Israeli conflict, its not Sadam Hussain, its
certainly not Osama Bin Laden it is Kashmir. The west needs to
pay attention o start delving into this t get in there and
promote peace with justice and especially first and foremost
justice for the Kashmiri people. Convening a tripartite and this
is all they have to do, the US is doing it in the Middle East its
doing it in Afghanistan, its doing it in everywhere in the world
even in Somalia, why can’t we do it Kashmir.
Aisha: So tell me what are the barriers here? Why doesn’t
the US or the UN have more of a role in this struggle?
William Baker:The problem with the UN is that it is the UN. I am
not one who derides the UN. I am thankful they are there, it is
the only place in the world where people can talk, the only place
on earth where countries talk to one another. The problem with
the UN is that it always becomes a group of politicians who kind
of sit around and say what should be done but no will to enforce
the resolutions they pass. The examples are the resolutions that
have already been passed, I have them in the book: the Shimla
agreement and all kinds of other UN resolutions adopted by them
going as far back as 1947, I have them listed by number. The
thing is they can pass all these resolutions, but they don’t
have the will to say now that we have passed them we have to
enforce them.
I call for that in my book: a UN buffer zone to move in now, to
move into this line of control as it is called, it is really a
cease fire line and there really is no ceasing of fire. There is
still exchanging of artillery and small arms almost daily. People
are dying between India and Pakistan. So why can’t the UN
begin right now and say, we’ve passed these resolutions as a
world body, we want to come in, we are going to come in and now
which side is going to drag it’s feet? This is of course the
test to the rest of the world which government would not really
want the UN to come and enforce these resolutions, which they
agreed to themselves by the way. Both parties are signatories to
these resolutions: India and Pakistan. Why not then the UN should
come forward. The reason is because it’s political, the
reason is because you have old friends in the UN, ambassadors who
say listen you give us that on Kashmir and we will vote for you
on the other issue. That’s what happens, it is not their
will. If you had in the UN average hardworking people, just for
representing their countries, like the Kashmiris should be there,
if we had these kinds of people in the UN these kinds of
resolutions would be passed.
This is the same problem with the US government. The new partner
that they are discovering in the world is India, and we are
trying to play with India and China both at the same time. China
has no use for India, there is going to be a grudge match some
day between those two. China leans towards support for Pakistan.
The US like the UN has ignored the Subcontinent and the issue of
Kashmir. It is sort of like what they did with Sadam Hussain on
the Issue of Kuwait. When he asked the ambassador one week before
he moved his forces into Kuwait what the US official position
was. The ambassador wired the state department and got the answer
she read it to him, I have a copy of it, it read we view the
issue of Iraq and Kuwait to be an Arab to Arab issue and its not
ours. So do what you want in other words, you have a green light,
we don’t care. As soon as he moved across the border
we’ve got our president drawing a line in the sand and
drawing a war on Iraq. This is the foolishness and nonsense of
politicians and political agendas. They always lack human rights
and justice and if everyone can put away their pettiness and
political aspirations and say, what can we do to stop the killing
and the suffering of the Kashmiri people and by the way enhance
the economies of Pakistan and India.
Aisha: Isn’t that the problem though? Isn’t the problem
India’s economy being greater, stronger and having a greater
market there?
William Baker: Exactly, India has a greater market but you know
what, Pakistan does too. And Pakistan in spite of all the things
and arguments against its survival since 1948, has survived. I
think it has angered some people who predicted that it
wouldn’t last 5 years. This shows me the resilience of the
people and the desire to be free and to be a true country of true
people. If we can get this Kashmiri issue resolved, both
countries instead of spending so much, This is the primary and
real issue between India and Pakistan: Kashmir. There is no
reason on earth why they could not be trading partners; it would
open up everything between India and Pakistan. Not only that can
you imagine if Pakistan and India did not have to spend the
billions of dollars on armament and military defenses against one
another. Can you imagine if they were free to use these economies
to build infrastructure, and they both need it. They both need
roads for the farmers to get the corps to sell in the city.
I have been to both countries and it’s the same. I have been
to New Delhi with this massive army and military and they have
power outages 4-5 times a day. And I have seen people hungry
outside the streets of the Delhi airport, getting run over by
trucks from the worn pavement at night. This is outrageous. With
Pakistan it’s the same you have such an impoverished areas
of Pakistan and it should not be because both countries have
natural resources and farming and industry that could really take
off without this face down militarily over Kashmir, so I want to
see these countries get with it.
They can help each other; I really hope to see in my lifetime, I
hope to live long to see these countries have the Kashmiri people
free and having no occupation forces, being Kashmiri and speaking
Kashmiri if they wish and dealing with countries, having families
in both countries and trade and open borders with both countries,
and then I’d really like to see the relations between India
and Pakistan, because the relationship is there the roots are
deep; the associations are very very long term between the Indian
people and the Pakistani people. But they can never come together
with the generations being raised with animosity and hostility
towards each other’s countries over Kashmir. It just
doesn’t need to happen if we can just seek justice,
everybody gets together in one room and say lets put away
ourselves, lets talk about justice for Kashmiris how can we heal
this land and people, and the by product will be a healing for
the whole region.
Aisha: Let’s put what’s on the table here. There are
some solid reasons why India has prevented and deferred and
delayed a plebiscite in Kashmir and does not want to discuss the
Kashmir issue at all and also doesn’t want mediation on the
Kashmir issue. So keeping these insecurities in mind even if they
do keep these insecurities aside, what fulfills that void what
can you do to replace that insecurity. You can’t have a
solution without thinking of what goes in that vacuum. So what do
you think?
William Baker: You know what has happened as I view it frankly
you’ve got a real problem in that, both India and Pakistan
have suffered from a similar fate and it’s not unlike in the
world. Political leadership feels that they cannot survive if
they compromise on this major issue, if they even suggest that
there is possibility of coming together on it, because you have
such intransigence on either side. The Indians of course say,
well all of India can unravel if we allow Kashmir to get away
from us then we cannot stop the other states of our nation.
The problem is that all the other states got to decide and vote
weather they wanted to be part of India or not. The Sikhs in
Punjab and so on who want an independent area themselves and
states want to be independent from India, that’s an internal
problem. By the way that is going on now weather Kashmir is given
its right for a plebiscite or not. India is fragmenting anyway.
They need too just pay attention to why are the Sikhs looking to
get out of this democracy and not wanting to be part of this
nation. Why do three other states want to withdraw? They need to
deal with those issues and it has nothing to do with Kashmir. It
is a matter of pride, it is a matter of saving face as you know
and as many of our listeners might know saving face is such a
foolish thing, but it’s everywhere in the world. Its here in
America, its in the west. Politicians saving face by doing this
or doing that even if it is wrong, even if it’s silly even
if it perpetuates a war and death on people. We have the same
thing in the subcontinent. To save face India says we don’t
want anybody to negotiate this issue because this is our issue-
Well, its really not. They signed on for intervention as did
Pakistan and frankly as I say in the book, they have to adhere to
the very solutions that they agreed to weather its saving face or
not. This concern for hegemony of - nobody is going to tell us,
we’re going to do what we’re going to do- that
isn’t true, the world has shrunk since 1948 and prior to
that since the dive for independence. We are a small world today
and its getting smaller everyday.
No man and country lives by itself and to itself anymore. India
has a big partner that it needs to start dealing with to resolve
the Kashmir issue with Pakistan, we’ll focus on that,
it’s called China. China is emerging as a super power, it
already is and even more so in the near future. China
doesn’t want this on its border, china doesn’t want
Kashmir to be a possible nuclear exchange flashpoint and as I
said they certainly won’t want in the wings and watch the
fireworks form Beijing. They would enter into it. The fear of
what you hear form the Indian government that it would unravel
our whole country, there country is already. Those areas that are
troubled are troubled, the Sikhs and so on, you need to deal with
them, the Tamils that they created, they need to deal with them.
They need some honesty and some integrity in their system and
justice, and Pakistan the same way. The generals who in may cases
are guided correctly; they mean well to save the country form
slipping this left or right. They also need to understand the
people cannot continue to sustain the militarism indefinitely for
the sake of education of their children, for economic growth
stimulation and survivability of families.
Aisha: Tell us a little about the Jammu and Kashmir Liberation
Front?
William Baker: The JKLM is a genuine front. I am met both
leaders-
Yasin Malik?
Yes and Aman-ul-Haq and many others. I must say that was the one
legitimate, of course there was Dr. Abdul Haq Guruh. Dr. Abdul
Haq Guruh was a leading spokesman for the JKLF. It is not a
terrorist organization. I mean here is Dr. Haq Guruh who has
never even owned a knife, except a surgical knife. He was the
most peace full man I have met all over the world: A loving,
kind, compassionate, super educated and gentle soul.
This is not a terrorist, this is a man who truly was a freedom
fighter who lost his life and gave it as a Muslim. Inshallah he
said he believed it and it happened. Again the people who are
carrying out the issues, who are dying are the youth as it always
is in every war. Everywhere I went there were JKLF people weather
they were educators, weather they were religious leaders they
were all promoting the JKLF. I felt that that, that was a very
legitimate representation collectively of the Kashmiri people. I
met Jamat-e-Islami, I met them all but the JKLF was in the
forefront in Newspapers in educating the public and the world
attempting to portray the realities of the occupation and what
they were going though.
Much of what I say is from my notes and my memory from Kashmiris
themselves. I mean men of stature like Abdul Ghani Lone, Ali
Ghilani, Abaas Ansari and of course Abdul Haq Guruh and more.
These are the people who have the right to speak for the Kashmiri
people and these are their words, much of what you’ve heard
me say. They are not property to be owned by either country. They
wanted to trade, to care and be part of both at the same time and
the only way of course is neutrality or an independent Kashmir
with open borders to both Pakistan and India.
Aisha: I have a quote here by Mr. Ghilani. “ This is a
struggle based on fact, on reality and no might on earth can
defeat the hard realities, you can’t demolish the
Himalaya.”
William Baker: That is exactly right. I was so impressed with
him. Of course I was blessed and fortunate while I was in Kashmir
to meet all of these wonderful and outstanding leaders. I met the
young mujahids of the JKLF of the Jamat-e-Islami I met them all.
He stood out and still does, I remember him saying, “ The
Indian’s are trying to eradicate our culture but culture is
tied to Islam, they attack Islam and we will continue to preach
and educate Islam as a way of life and Law. We shall never give
up our faith and our struggle to be free.’ And another
quote, and I love this because I am a Christian, “ It is
time for all believers in one God to join hands and oppose all
the evils of the evil doers in the world. We Kashmiris have been
in the clutches of India since 1947. When the British left the
empire to two nations and two religions, Hindus and Muslims,
India and Pakistan, we will never surrender or cease in our
struggle for freedom not only to practice our religion Islam but
of self-determination.”
Aisha: Farooq Abdullah, the chief minister of Jammu and Kashmir
is known to be a freckles playboy by Kashmiris by Indians and
Pakistanis alike, why is he then the only leader in Kashmir that
New Delhi is ready to do business with?
Well he wants to be a parliamentarian, a member of the Indian
congress.
Aisha: And that can get him to negotiate with India?
William Baker:
It’s power it’s political materialism, he doesn’t
represent the Kashmiri people. A true leader of the Kashmiri
people doesn’t need to be defended by Indian Guards and
troops. You follow me? …A leader who is loved and respected
by his people anywhere on earth doesn’t need that, the fact
that he is one of the most despised person in Kashmir-
Aisha: And Anti-Pakistan?
William Baker: Oh Absolutely anti-Pakistan. It’s obvious he
wants to be a member of Indian congress and feather his own nest
where he has a plush plump position as a laky for the BJP, Advani
and the rest. Anytime they need some statement about Kashmir he
gives it dutifully. This is outrageous. Let the people of Kashmir
have an honest vote and see if the Kashmiri people would vote for
him or his party. You would see in an instant he would be no
more. He is a strictly a front person for the wishes and whims of
the Indian government. And not all, I have met educators,
especially educators in various parts of the world, In the UN, In
Geneva, in NY who have actually invited me to talk in India as we
are talking here. There are Indian within India who are tired of
it, they see the economic drain and they see frankly the
injustice of what’s going on. They don’t support it,
they are not part of it. How any of them can ever get their
collective voices together, I don’t know. It gives me hope
that there are reasonable people around who we can appeal to and
one day Almighty God would put them in a position of leadership.
Aisha: Today Reuters had a report on Kashmir, it was entitled
‘India’s Vietnam or Pakistan’s proxy war?’ By
Ann Landers. I’d like to bring to your attention this
particular line I found interesting, “ But to New Delhi
it’s a proxy war fought by Pakistan to destabilize India in
revenge for 1947 which left it dwarfed by its bigger
neighbor.” Now I remember around this time I believe last
year it was in your lecture at San Jose State University you
said, “India has never forgiven Pakistan for being
created.” I want to ask you, isn’t this a naive view,
or is this tit for tat violence so rooted in hatred of the
previous generations that it perhaps only escalates from here?
William Baker: I think it’s both, I think it’s also a
naive view but it’s also associated with that same attitude
of ‘Pakistan how dare you leave us when we become India, a
country in the partition’ And they said well, you’ll
never make it, you’ll never last on your own’. The fact
that it has and it continues to survive. IT comes back to what we
talked about quiet a bit earlier in our discussion, the element
of saving face and national pride and political pride of ‘Oh
My Gosh they cannot govern without us’ and they have and
continue to.
Aisha: What kind of confidence building measures can we put in
place now?
William Baker:The confidence building will have to be lead by the
west. I am sorry to say. I believe the two parties; India and
Pakistan are feeling that they cannot move forward towards making
any kind of proposal or compromise or even to talk together about
the issue of Kashmir, to convene the tripartite. They cannot
comfortably do this with the population uneducated about the
realities of Kashmir. I find people in both countries who
don’t even know the background of how Kashmir became the
Issue that it is. You know there is a lot of non-education in
both countries and illiteracy is very widespread in both
countries.
So here are the facts we have, 465-mile line of Control that sees
about 10-15 deaths per day. There was hope that perhaps Pakistan
could convince the US to mediate on the Issue.
The US can go to the UN if it wanted to. This is what I have
solicited the congressmen and senators to do and will continue to
do so. When I have the opportunity to meet the Presidents and
Vise Presidents, I say the exact same thing. It’s in
America’s interest to have peace in that part of the world.
The new economic openings for India, this 1 Billion people and
China on the border, you want relations with Pakistan who is
always going to be a player in that part of the world not only
geographically but also because of it’s military and again
it’s priorities for it’s own security on it’s
boundaries. It’s in America’s interest to take the lead
again; I say that in the conclusion of the book. I don’t
just write books and say here’s a terrible situation and
here are some terrible photographs.
I spent a lot of my time in that last chapter talking about
solutions. What India must do, what Pakistan must do, what UN
must do and what the rest of the world must do. And then what
America must do. Right now America must take the lead like it
does anywhere when it wants to. We’ve got there UN
resolutions on the table for 53 years, lets get a UN force in
here, We know India’s not going to like it, we know Vajpayee
and Advani, you’re not going to like it but you know what,
we’re going to do it because you signed on. Just because
there is another regime in power doesn’t make null and void
the signatures of your former president and parliament. You were
both signatories to these resolutions we are going to bring it
in. Now I don’t believe Pakistan would argue that much.
I don’t know if I should give an opinion here but, I’ll
try and be detached and speak as a Pakistani student, most of us
are of the view that Kashmiris right of self -determination must
be addressed, weather they choose to be Independent or they
choose to be with India or with Pakistan, that it’s suffered
too much and I think that has been the official position of
Pakistan.
Well it hasn’t been, I have to say. When Ms. Benazir Bhutto
was Prime Minster she did voice opinion with me in Cyprus and
elsewhere publicly. She started including and using the term,
“or the right to be an independent country”. I had to
break through quiet a wall. I don’t know how successful I
have been in Pakistan as we are talking about Pakistan, because
as I said I addressed many secessions of members of parliament
and members of the senate as well; The president, Farooq Leghari
and others. I was probably the first, as I said I spoke for the
Kashmiri people. In Islamabad at the holiday Inn, when we had the
president and foreign ambassadors there I said, Ladies and
gentlemen, you leaders of Pakistan must stop using the 1948
furbish of ‘Kashmir has a right of plebiscite to choose us,
Pakistan or India.’ There is a new element they fought and
bled and died for and that is Independent belonging to neither
one. This is their plan and it has been drafted, it’s known
that they want a relationship with both countries, like I said
open borders. To anwer your question weather the political
leadership of Pakistan has finally adopted as a profile public
statement includingthe term, “or the right of
self-determination of an independent state.”
It definitely should, and I hope that everyone has got that
message through what you’ve said today.
I want to thank you this has been wonderful. I hope all
listeners, weather they are upset or angry, that’s ok, at
least we got you thinking of this subject. I’d like to
encourage everyone listening to this program to get a copy of my
book. Not to make money, not at all. If I wanted that I
wouldn’t be writing books on Kashmir or anything like this.
I would like them to read the subject to be honest, objective and
analytical, try to forget what they were taught at home by
families and the usual lies of their countries, but to consider
just the merit of the Kashmiri people: Their struggles to be free
people. If they do that they will come up with the right decision
and they’ll come down on the right side of this issue.
And I thank you for the interview.
Aisha: Thank you for being with us. Along with this interview we
have a link to your book. Can you provide a contact so that
listeners can get in touch with you regarding the book?
William Baker: I would be happy to correspond with anybody, If
they’d like to follow up and get the book they can order it
through there. The main thing is to get the message out as you
have done today. Getting these facts out, because it’s one
of the least known areas and it’s the most dangerous nuclear
flashpoint.
-The End-
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